Posts by Disillusioned JW

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Correction: In prior post where I said "( a human, if if every really existed)" I meant to say "(a human, if he ever really existed)".

Folks, please consider the following. I read in more than one book about the Bible, the Jews, and the Jewish religion, that the Jews concluded during their exile in Babylon that reason why Jerusalem was destroyed and why the Jews went into exile is because many of the Jews committed idolatry, by worshiping someone (a perceived God, such as Baal) or something (such as a graven image) as God. They concluded not repeat that mistake again and instead to worship only YHWH God alone, and not any human. A great many Jews were thus resistant to adopt any form of Christianity in which Jesus was proclaimed as God or a god. Furthermore, the Gospels says that the Jewish religious leaders accused Jesus of blasphemy due to his statements about himself, which sounded like (at least in the minds of the Jewish leaders) of claiming deity.

A great many Greeks and Romans in contrast had no difficulty with the idea of a human also being a god/God and they had no difficulty with the idea of their being multiple gods/Gods. That is because there religions taught polytheism, including that at least one person was both a human and a god. Hercules was was consider a son of a virgin woman and the God Zeus - and at the time Zeus was elevated in status to being the father of the gods and chief god/God over humans, to being God the Father! Hercules was said to have amazing feats and to descended into Hades (the realm of the dead) and to have ascended out it. He is said to have gone into Hades and order to bring a dead human (who had become a spirit) out of Hades alive - to bring about a resurrection!

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

It seems like some people on this forum are saying (granted with some scriptural support) that both God the Father and Jesus Christ are Yahweh, but that conflicts with Deuteronomy 6:4. That verse is the one which says "Listen, O Israel, YHWH (Yahweh) our God is one YHWH (Yahweh)." The Jews (of Judaism), in the form in which they substitute the word Adonai (Lord) call it the Shema ("The Lord our God is one Lord"). It is a key teaching of the religion and a big part of the reason they reject the Trinity doctrine, and believe in strict monotheism instead.

There is also an OT verse which says that Yahweh says there was no God before him, nor any other God currently, and that there will be no God after him. Hypothetically speaking, if Yahweh God is for real, then that would have been an opportune time for his to say that he has a son who is also Yahweh and that together they are one God. It would have been an excellent time to proclaim the trinity doctrine, yet the OT doesn't do either. If it had, most likely far more Jews would have accepted Jesus as the son of God and as God. Right?

Vanderhoven7, I agree with you that is understandable that many people would worship Jesus if they believe the following: he created (and/or made) all entities other than himself and God the Father; all power in earth and heaven belong to him; he has a name which is above every name; at the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord. But to me those teachings ascribe deity (or something very close to such) to him ( a human, if if every really existed), and is thus part of the strange (to me) worshipful mindset they have of Jesus, in contrast to what much of the OT (the OT is more than 3/4 of the Christian Bible) teaches!

According to the Bible Elijah (I think) say if Baal if God then worship him, but that is Yahweh is God then worship him. I think he also (according to the Bible), but perhaps it was a different prophet, said don't go limping on two different opinions, worship only being/person as God - not two (or more). The Trinitarian Christians worship 3 as God (while also saying there is only one God, but nonetheless God consists of three persons).

Regarding the nature of God (of the Bible) parts of the Bible are contradicting other parts of the Bible.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Correction: In my post which is about an hour older than this post, where I said 'As a result, as once or twice I prayed to Jehovah before I became a convinced atheistic naturalist" I meant to say 'As a result, as once or twice I prayed to Jesus before I became a convinced atheistic naturalist."

Vanderhoven7, what do you think the Jews, specifically those who both believe Judaism and practice it, think of the NT's (the verses you cited) handling of passages about YHWH in the Hebrew Scriptures OT?What do you think they think of the NT's applying various OT verses about YHWH to Jesus?

The Book of Jubilees (an OT Apocryphal book which is part of the sacred scripture of the Ethiopic Orthodox Church, a Jewish leaning Christian Church) says that YHWH God ordered the angels of God to worship Adam (since Adam, according to Genesis and the Book of Jubilees) was made in God's image. It says that one angel, namely Satan, refused to do so because Satan thought it was wrong for himself to worship a being who was created later than Satan himself. From a scriptural point of view it would indeed to wrong for anyone to worship Adam instead of God, but interestingly some of NT writers say that Jesus (whom Paul says is the second Adam) should be worshiped).

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Vanderhoven7, I added more content to my prior post before I refreshed the web page and saw your most recent post (about 8 minutes before I made the un-revised version of this post) in this topic thread. Please read my revised post. I agrees with some of what you said in your post.

I am aware that Hebrews 1:10-12 quotes Psalms 102:25-27; I note (written by me) in one of my 1984 NWT Bibles saying such.

Thankfully as a result of me now being an atheist I no longer believe I have to believe in some kind of supernatural god. I am now free to disbelieve in all god concepts, without any fear of possibly being wrong. I thus don't have to believe in polytheism, henotheism, trinity, binity, pure monotheism, angels, demons, or even deism. All of those god (and god-like) concepts (other than deism) are strange to me, and as a result of my research (which led me to atheism) all of them (except perhaps deism) are proven false to well beyond a reasonable doubt. I also think there is a good scientifically based case against deism, but that case is not as strong as the case against the other mentioned god (and god-like) concepts.

As to the concept of pantheism, that god concept is unclear, for what does it mean for one to say that the universe (or multiverse, if such exists) is god/God? Is the universe, as a whole, in some sense conscious? If not, how it can it be thought of god/God - even though it created us and even though we are a part of it?

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Vanderhoven7 I wasn't aware of Zechariah 3:2 (1977 NASB) saying 'And the LORD [Jehovah] said to Satan, "The LORD [Jehovah] rebuke you Satan! ....".' The 1984 NWT in that verse says 'Then [the angel of] Jehovah said to Satan: "Jehovah rebuke you ...".' I can see how you and could see Zechariah 3:2 saying that it speaks of two persons named Jehovah in light of what verse. But until I see more evidence for that view, II think the NWT's use of "[the angel of]" is likely correct in that verse, in light of what verse 1 says. I think another possible way of interpreting the verse could be that Jehovah God the Father is saying that he himself rebuked Satan. In other words I think that a translation expressing the meaning of verse could possibly be accurately worded as follows. 'And Jehovah said to Satan, I Jehovah rebuke you Satan! ...".'

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Greek Septuagint likely says "Iesous" ["Jesus"] in verse one in place of "Joshua" since the name Iesous/Jesus (though not referring to Christ) is the Greek transliteration of the name Joshua. Interestingly the NT says that Jesus Christ is a high priest.

That verse can be understood as an individual (not named Jehovah) acting on behalf of Jehovah, and as result the credit is given to Jehovah. That view is like how human rulers are often said to have taken various actions, when literally it were persons under their authority who literal took the actions, acting in behalf of the rulers.

The words in Hebrews 1:8 which say "Your throne, O God" ["God is your throne" in the 1984 NWT) are a quote of part of Psalms 45:6. I have done research about that I have concluded that the translation of "God is your throne" of part of Psalms 45:6 is a plausible one, referring to a person (the Messiah/Christ) receiving his kingly authority from God the Father. But I can also see the plausibility of the idea of the Messiah being referred to as God.

Jehovah's Witnesses, and like-minded ones, please consider the following.

Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus Christ exists, then the following is true.

Since the governing body of the Jehovah's Witnesses (by their own admission) does not pray to Jesus Christ or in any other way talk to Jesus Christ, then the governing body is shunning Jesus. They do not seek for Jesus Christ to fellowship with them prior their death - despite knowing what the NT teaches. As a result, if they they continue to be that way until their death, then they will never be co-rulers with Jesus in heaven (or on the Earth during the 1,000 years). In support of that consider the following.

Matthew 16:24 claims that Jesus spoke of those who want to come after Jesus (that is, come to Jesus). Is the governing body seeking to come to Jesus? Do they attempt to have a personal relationship with Jesus now? Do they ever talk to Jesus Christ?

John 10:27-28 (1984 NWT) claims Jesus said the following. " 27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." Do any of the members of the governing body follow Jesus in that full sense, of having a personal relationship with Jesus? If not, is it unlikely they will obtain everlasting life?

Revelation 3:20-21 (1984 NWT) claims that Jesus (in what is claimed to be a vision to John) said the following. "20 Look! I am standing at the door and knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into his [house] and take the evening meal with him and he with me. 21 To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne." Does the governing body figurative open their door to Jesus and fellowship with Jesus? If not, according to Revelation 3:20-21 will they be barred from ruling with Jesus Christ?